Roberto “Taz” Villaseñor - The Legacy Project with Jim Copple

Roberto “Taz” Villaseñor: Faith, Policing, and the Power of Listening

In this episode of The Legacy Project, host Jim Copple sits down with Roberto “Taz” Villaseñor, former Chief of the Tucson Police Department and a key member of President Obama’s Task Force on 21st Century Policing.

Taz shares his journey—from growing up in a multi-generational immigrant family in Tucson, to finding faith as a teenager, and ultimately leading one of Arizona’s largest police departments. He speaks openly about the conflict between suspicion and trust, what it's like to be a police chief in a post-George Floyd world, and how his faith continues to shape his life and legacy.

You'll hear real stories—some painful, some redemptive—and gain insight into what it takes to lead with integrity in law enforcement. Whether you're a cop, a reformer, a community advocate, or someone seeking deeper understanding, this episode will make you think.

Check out some of Taz's work at 21CP Solutions. https://www.21cpsolutions.com

The Legacy Project is a series of conversations that focuses on legacy, the one we inherit and the one we can create. It is value based and not material based. We interview a wide range of individuals who reflect on key influencers in their lives.

Please subscribe to our podcast to hear future episodes. Please also consider leaving us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts. You can learn more on our Facebook Page.

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Transcript

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Welcome to The Legacy Project. Today, we're talking to Roberto Valencior. He goes by Taz. I've known Taz for the last 10 years, worked with him as a facilitator of a task force on President Obama's Task Force on 21st Century Policing. Got to know him well and enjoyed his professional work and call him a friend. The Legacy Project is about understanding the influences that have shaped us and at the same time, exploring the legacy we want to create and the legacy we want to be known by. So, Taz, where were you born? Where are you from? Oh, I'm born, bred, raised in Tucson, Arizona, and I have deep ties to the community. On my mom's side, we go back five generations to southern Arizona. There were ranchers here in the Sonoyta, Patagonia area. And on my dad's side, my grandfather... immigrated across as a cobbler, shoe repairman. He and my father were both shoe repairmen. I was raised in a shoe repair shop. And we've been established in Tucson now for at least five generations. Wow. That's significant. There are not many people that can say that kind of lineage for that long of a period of time. Correct. Yeah, that's great. As a child growing up, who are the big influences in your life? Who helps shape who you are, your values, the things that have really defined who you are? Well, there are several issues. Obviously, my parents, both my mom and dad. And they brought me up in a very close-knit family. Every Sunday, we would go over to my grandmother's house on my dad's side or go over to my mom's parents. And a lot of family get-togethers, a lot of family parties and dinners and meals. And so that shaped me a lot. But then I have to say that sports really had an influence on me, playing football and wrestling and sports. chocolate and discus. And so I've always liked a sport mentality, a teamwork mentality, a lot of effort to achieve what you want to achieve. But then I have to really say that over the years, faith has been a very big influence for me. Growing up, being raised as a Roman Catholic, I read the entire one of the most big family Bibles, and from the time I was about 12, 13 years old, I would read a little bit every night, and I read through that whole Bible, and I have since become non-denominational Christian for a variety of reasons, but I noticed right away that the Maccabees are not in a non-Catholic Bible, and so that kind of changed things, but So my faith, you know, catechism and going through that. And then since then, the relationship I've developed with Jesus Christ and God, I think it's been a huge influence for me. So was that an expectation in your family? At what point did it really become your own? Oh, like I said, probably 12 or 13. I kind of, I think, suppressed my family. Because if you were to say, every family has a black sheep, that was probably me. My sister was very strong-willed and rebellious. She was probably second in running for it, but she just didn't like being under control of my father, and so soon she turned 18. She left the college and never came back. My brother was like every parent's dream. He was my older brother. He was a letterman in sports and baseball, and He was homecoming, court, and all that. And I was not any of those things. I got into trouble some when I was young and did things I shouldn't have done. And so I think it really shocked them when they would see me reading the Bible at night. And they even said sometimes in my sleep I would be mumbling things, and it sounded to them like Bible verses. And I'm sure that's because right before I went to bed, I was reading. Yeah. the Bible and stuff. So I can't say that anyone drew me in or brought me in other than just the motivation I had myself. So how did that faith or the discipline you took really to read through the scriptures, how did that influence decisions that you made or choices that you made? How present was that in that process? I tried to do everything for what I consider to be a sound fair basis. And I also really need to emphasize, while I say that faith had a great influence on me, I definitely had issues of not being obedient to what my faith said how I should act. I was rebellious, I was a character, and so you don't get a nickname like Taz without having some issues there in the background. But I think that it instilled in me a genuine belief in doing things by other people that are right. To treat people fairly, to be conscious of their feelings, to understand how they may perceive things, and try and see if that perception is something I can meld with. If it's not, it's not. But at least I don't have to be disrespectful to them. To what extent, in terms of your development, did education play a role for you? Originally, very little. School didn't interest me at all. I went through it, and I kept my grades to an average grade level, even though I tested probably could have been an advanced education. My parents couldn't afford it and didn't feel the need there. But I was bored in school. And I did just enough to get C's so I could play sports. Yeah, I was going to say to qualify for sports. But then once I got into my professional life, it wasn't until I really became, you know, I went to the university after high school, but it was more the social aspects. I went one year to junior college and I went three years up in Flagstaff, Arizona, Northern Arizona University, where I joined a fraternity. And it was all about the social aspect of it. And I really didn't understand the benefit and value of education until I started my professional career. So by the time I became a lieutenant, I said, you know, I hadn't finished my bachelor's degree. I said, I need to go get that done. And if I want to do anything else besides being a lieutenant or captain, because above that, you really need to have a degree. So I went back and I was working full time and I went back and got my degree. And then I said, well, might as well continue. And I was enjoying it, actually, because a lot of people on the department went through what we call cohorts. Well, it was other department members going through. And so it's all cops going through this educational process. So all the discussion was from the viewpoint of cops. I didn't do that purposely. I chose not to do that. And so I went just signing up like any other person would do and went into the program. And then the people in the class find out what I did, and boy, that caused a lot of great conversation. But the nice part about that was I think that prepared me for community meetings. And because I would hear what the issues and concerns are and the feelings people would have, and I would get a chance to present back my views of what's going on and what i feel the police were doing and why police did what they did yeah they didn't always agree and i didn't always agree with them but we had good civil discourse about topics that were important and i think that as much as just the book work and the testing was probably more influential aspect of my education than the formal education aspect was and so i did that both through my bachelor's and then i continued on to get my master's while I was still in the school, you know, school attendance mode. And so I did stop before I said, I can't do a doctorate. I just, the idea of doing a doctorate, although sometimes I look back with regret, but the idea at that time of doing a doctorate, at that point, I was already assistant chief when I got my master's. And I said, I can't do this job and continue to be a doctorate. We're talking to Roberto Velasenor, and he met him when he was chief of the Tucson Police Department, and he was a member of President Obama's Task Force on 21st Century Policing. And how did you decide, or what influenced you to become a police officer? Actually, one of my biggest influences was my brother. My brother had become a police officer in 1976.

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I went on a couple ride-a-longs with him. I watched him. I watched what was going on. We talked about the job. And, you know, my dad always wanted both of us to go into the shoe repair business. From the time I was 10 years old on, and Augie, that's my brother, when he was 10, also went to the shop every Saturday, some days after school, during the summer he worked there. And our dad so wanted us to take over the business, his two sons. Neither one of us wanted to take over the sugar bear business. He was having a great time as a cop. I looked at that and I said, you know, that really intrigued me because it also instilled some of the same issues of sports. It was team oriented. It was goal oriented, dealing with problems, dealing with issues and forming bonds and camaraderie that really appealed to me. So that probably was probably the greatest influence for me to become a police officer. And he helped me greatly through the testing process. The first time I took a test, they failed me for the psychological portion. And so my brother went to the human resource and said, you know, you need to understand, this is what this kid's been going through, all the stress it's had there. He's got what you need, but right now you hit him at a bad time. So they agreed to give me a second test. um for the next class and i passed and i went in i explained you know yes i was i i'm not making excuses but it did affect me i see that now but this is the way i feel and so they passed me on and um but since then i've never completely trusted psychological evils because i know they're not without you know fail or they're not infallible But he really helped a lot. And then when I got in, it was the best decision of my life. It's exactly what I wanted. Developed deep friendships, had the fulfillment. And the nice part is Tucson's a big enough agency that every two or three years, if you wanted to, you could find something else to do. You apply yourself. And so I was able to do that and had a very blessed career and did just about everything you can do as a police officer. And I really enjoyed it. Is that something you would recommend to people going into law enforcement to be able to have that ability to move laterally across different aspects of the department? Well, if they're in a large agency, yes. The problem is that the majority of police are in much smaller agencies and it doesn't offer that flexibility. One of my sons was trying to become a police officer and The issues then were just starting to develop. They are now. He ended up not doing it. And he's now very successful. He went on to become a general manager of a car dealership and now sells construction equipment. And all my children are very successful. But I don't know. At this point, police work is so difficult for police officers. I would never tell someone not to. to be a police officer. I still think it's a noble profession, a noble calling, but it has to be a calling in my perspective to go into the police world and suffer what police are suffering nowadays. The thing is that we were noticing this as I was chief, I was starting, and now since my consulting work since I retired, for the past 10 years, every agency complains about that. It seems like The new generation mostly wants to be there for three, four, five years and move on to something else. And so it's real difficult to build the things that we say we want to build for community policing and officers that know their community, their residents, their business people. If their viewpoint is, I'm just going to be here for three years and then go. So it really has to be a calling, I think, for anyone who wants to go into police work. So speaking, In the context of where you've come from and what your profession is, you're a partner, correct, in 21CP, which is, I often refer to 21CP as the refugees from the task force and the great work. And in all transparency, I've been a senior advisor to 21CP and have seen your work. You're on the boat. That's right. And I've seen the work that you and others coming out of the policing profession have done. How does consulting enhance or strengthen the values that you have expressed or lived as a police officer? I think it has strengthened it because it gives me the opportunity to to present the profession and present the ideas that I know the profession contains to others that have serious doubts or antagonism against the profession. And it has provided an opportunity to try and mend some of the fences that have been torn down over the past couple of decades between police and communities that they serve, and on both sides. to go in and just speak very frankly to some police and say, wait a second, you got to understand how this comes across and how what we were trained in 20 years ago doesn't really flow with society today. On the other hand, I've also gone into community and said, you need to understand the pressures that police are under and the attacks that they're under and why they act the way they do. Because you're looking at it from an area where, you know, people say, well, why do they have to come across so aggressive? And you don't have to come across aggressive, but you have to be suspicious. If you're not suspicious, you're not going to be a good police officer. That's just, in my opinion, the basis of it. You have to wonder about things. If you take everything carte blanche and add its face value, you're going to be fooled a lot of times and you're going to miss out on a lot of stuff that's going on that really is evil. And so I think that it really... It helps me to try and get both sides to understand a little bit more of the other side. And the fact that I get to go around and talk to so many people on both sides of the fence, that I can hear all these ideas, try and meld them together and put out something that's a little bit more acceptable to everyone. You use the word suspicious. I worked on a project recently. I've always maintained, especially after the murder of George Floyd, that everybody was talking about reimagining policing. And it struck me, in fact, it was quoted in the New York Times as saying that The trouble with reimagining policing today is there's very little imagination in terms of what a department would look like and that we sometimes recycle certain kinds of events. And in that, I interviewed a number of people about reimagining or imagining what policing would look like. And one of the things that came out of that was the use of the word curiosity and And I wonder what the difference, I mean, police officers and especially police leadership, having curiosity about how things work, about what the community looks like, is an asset or a strength. And that may be similar to suspicious, being suspicious. Any thoughts on that? I think curiosity is a great quality for a police officer to have, but I do not see it as the same as suspicion. Okay. Because suspicion carries with it, with a sense of distrust or face value items, which is all people lie to police all the time.

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And curiosity is, doesn't have that value behind it. Curiosity has a desire to learn the truth. I get that. But without the bias of, okay, but did people lie to me? And people do lie. And see, so that's where I find a little bit different to that. I think curiosity is a great quality for a police officer because they need to act on it. They need to say, okay, and not only just for the bad things, but say, what if we did this? I wonder if that would make things better. I wonder if we approach someone this way, would that make things better? That's a curiosity to me that I think can be beneficial. But when you're at the scene and everyone's angry, screaming, yelling, you're breaking apart fights and stuff, everyone's going to try and put their side across with the grave of the righteousness. And probably the truth lies somewhere in between that. So you have to be suspicious of what you're told because you cannot take it at face value. So given especially your faith commitment and what you've said about suspicious, and I don't dispute that at all, what I am also curious about is being a police officer, what is it, how has it impacted your capacity to trust and to trust community members, to trust colleagues? Trust is a, I mean, if I remember correctly, trust was a huge part of the task force report. Right. And how do we build trust if you're also suspicious? Because suspicions can be overcome. But my trust was damaged a lot as a police officer because I found myself lied to many times. You know, one of the most telling episodes I had as a young police officer is I stopped this woman for driving wrong way on the road. She was coming straight at people head on. So I put my car between hers and others, pulled her over, and she was drunk as to be. Got her out and performed all fifth sobriety tests, arrested her for DUI. She was just sobbing and crying. And I felt terrible. She was very nice. She was crying. And I'm so sorry. I made mistakes. I should have done this. I should have done that. Took her back to the station to run the breathalyzer. At that time, we didn't have mobile ones in the cars. And so took her back and did that. And she blew an enormously high blood alcohol content. And so, but I said, don't worry, don't worry. It's just, I'm going to give you a citation. We'll have someone come pick you up. You'll be going home tonight. Don't be worried about that. But she was very distraught. But one of our routine practices was I was, oh, I have to do my records check. So I go back and do a records check on her. And there were two felony warrants for very serious crimes on her, and I confirmed it, and who she was, by ID, all the information I had. I went back to her and I said, you didn't tell me about this, and there's more felonies like that. Teardrops stopped, and she said, well, I took a shot. And that was just such an important lesson to me because my human nature and probably maybe my faith-based nature was to try and cut a break, try and help this person out. Everyone makes mistakes. People have a right to make mistakes and come back for that. But then that taught me that not everyone out there, you know, the old adage, a wolf in sheep's clothing. Sometimes people can confuse you and they can conceal their true identity. your actions that make you feel as if they're sincere, but when they're not. And that wasn't the only time, but lessons like that damage your ability to trust. But where the problems came in, and what we talked a lot about in the task force, is you have to be able to separate the specific from the general. We have distrust of certain individuals based upon their actions and what we find out. But that shouldn't spill over to distrust of every single person you come into contact with. Give them a chance at first. Their story could be legit. So that old trust but verify thing, very important. And also to approach it from the viewpoint of, if I go in there saying, I don't trust you, I don't trust you, I don't trust you, you're not going to believe anything the community says. that's not conducive to any type of good relationship. You gotta listen to what the community is saying. Play it back, because I mean, if you're not defensive and you're honest about things, some of these things the community's complaining about, I can clearly see happening. And that may be a thing where you have to go now, okay, well, we need to investigate this. We need to look into this. But it is something that you have to really practice that and struggle with as a police officer, I think, because of the way the job bends you. Particularly in your role as a chief, I know, again, after George Floyd, we started or launched a project called Act Now, which was funded by Joyce Foundation, Stand Together, and Walmart. And over the last three years, we've talked to over 20,000 community people, people that are not normally invited to the table when reform issues are discussed or there's a problem in the community. We went door to door, neighborhood to neighborhood. And then we talked to over 1,200 line officers. And the thing that we did in that process was we listened. We set up listening sessions. And we didn't come in with a prescription or with 10 recommendations to do this or that. And we're about to release a report to the nation based on the listening. And that happened. in your consulting role coming out of a leadership role of a department um is listening important to you it is because it gets you inside the door there and listen to it and i don't know if you remember this you gave me one of my best compliments in my consulting career i forget which project we were on but we were dealing with union members of this agency it's a mid-sized agency And so we had gone in there, and we were talking. They were complaining about this and that, complaining about that. So I let them roll on for a while and listen. But then I came back at them, and I shot down a lot of their arguments and said, but you've got to understand, the world has changed from when you started. Because these are uni guys. Most of them are a little bit more senior and tenured. Right. Go back to remember how things were. And I'd say, you're in a fishbowl in today's world. And I believe this was after the Floyd murder. And so I said, you cannot do those type of things. Those are not right. You need to look at it how the public sees you. And look at that. And I convinced them. They got around, yeah, okay, maybe we could look at some other things and do things differently. Afterward, you said to me, Tess, I love the way that you speak truth to power. And I said, wow, that's really nice. Because sometimes if you listen to what their issues are, But then you come back at them with truth about, but this is the way the world is and the situation it's in. You can make converts. Yeah, that's right. So that, to me, is very important in that people have to feel they're listened to if you want any chance for them to listen to you and to hear your viewpoints and maybe change their way of thinking. Yes. You know, that was extremely important for me, and I would go out as often as I could and talk to the troops and go– you know, to briefing or just actually I even call some meetings sometimes where I brought in a division and just talked and listened, let them say their complaints. A lot of times when I tell them, okay, well, this is why we did this. This is why we did that. Oh, well, okay. We didn't know.

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Yeah. I know you didn't know, but I don't tell you every single thing, but this helps you understand it. Yeah. Well, it was interesting in this process of these listening sessions with rank and file officers and community people, the listening process portion, particularly of the rank and file officers, turned out to be one of the more positive, encouraging things I've experienced in my role of working with police. And it covered the whole demographic in terms of age, et cetera, and the wisdom of their experience and what policing needs to look like going forward in a changing environment. It was very instructive, and hopefully it gets capitalized in our report to the nation. I look forward to reading your report. So how many children do you have? I have four children and six grandchildren. Six grandchildren. Well, I have eight and 24 grandkids. You have a ways to go, brother. I don't think I'm ever going to reach that. So when you think about your children, your grandchildren, what is it that you want to transmit to them? in terms of the values that have shaped you and the values that you want them to capture from your life? I want faith to play a more important role in their lives. Mine came about, I can't give you, like you asked me earlier, what was the thing that drew you to it? I'm not sure.

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I know is that I wanted to read the Bible, and I read the Bible, but I didn't have anyone directly say you should do this. But one of the memories I do have is that my dad, had this little altar in his bedroom. It was a wrought iron corner piece altar, and on it was traditional, I view it as very common in Mexican, Hispanic households. It was like a three-foot tall statue of Jesus, the robe of the bird of heart, and then the Verde de Guadalupe on one side, and I forget what else the other. And he would go in there at night, every night, his arms on each side of the wall and he would bow his head and pray he didn't really you know proselytize us and talk to us about faith or anything but that was impactful to me okay well there's relationship there i want to give that relationship to my children and grandchildren i think that we have because my children all attend church with me we all go the three of my children go to the same church as us one of them goes to a different church but we go to that church every once in a while. And my grandchildren go there too. And for them, it is an important aspect of their lives today. And so that's what I want to instill to them, because they're going to need an anchor in this world, because I see for quite a while, things aren't going to be better. They need a place where they can go to for strength and support. That's a good point. So Taz, what makes you laugh? Oh, just about everything. I got a great sense of humor and frustration myself. I can fight humor and everything, sometimes irreverent. But I can't say there's one certain thing that makes me laugh because I'm surprised by the things that I will laugh at. Right now, my big kick is on social media. There's this app out there that makes babies laugh. talk or impersonate political figures and they make me roar with laughter when you see this baby impersonating people that you recognize on the political theater out there and the manners and the voices and I just think that's hilarious but I thank God I've gotten away from the crude humor that I used to enjoy and now I'm thinking a little bit more And I feel a lot of old age jokes throw in there now, too, that make a lot more sense to me now than they did 30 years ago. Yeah, that's right. And I find those funny as well. But I find humor in a lot of things in life. Well, we're talking with Roberto Villasenor and former chief of police in Tucson, a partner in 21CP. But you are also a photographer. I am. Well, I kind of think I am for some reason. I've seen your work, and when you post them on Facebook, and I've used your work. In fact, my most recent book that I did while being treated for prostate cancer called Meditations and Radiation, I saw one of Taz's photographs that he takes of... celestial photography. And it reminded me just of the power of radiation in the universe. And I wound up using that for the cover of my book. What got you interested in photography? Especially that kind of photography. Well, my second son started this when he was in third grade. And they were going through an astronomy phase. So we bought him a telescope. And I bought one that, I think it was Toys R Us or something. It's magnified 500 times. Piece of junk. And we tried everything we could to make it so we could see things, and you could see maybe a few things on the moon, nothing. So I'm driving it by there, or driving it back to the store, turning it, and there's this astronomy shop called Star Izona, which is a worldwide company now. It's really, really well-known in the astronomy world, and it's based in Tucson. So we pulled in there and I met the owner and talked to him and explained, yeah, you don't want something like that. Let me show you a good scope that's a starter scope about the same price. So we ended up picking the older one back and buying that. And I became hooked. We started seeing things. Then my son didn't want to do it anymore. And I, no, dad, it's all right. And so I kept going and I just, I kept going to larger scopes and larger scopes. And then I tried, when we used to do film photography, that was difficult. Days when you had to sit there at the scope with a little gyroscope and guide the scope, make sure it's on target for an hour at a time. Exhausting. And it's just what technology has developed where you can do almost everything automated now. And the things that you can see on a camera lens that naked eye will just see as a gray blob up there. And then when you develop it, you take a picture and all of these colors come forth and all these gas and wisps of gas and everything. I find that is a true sign of the work of God and God's advocates in every way. And that's creation. I just love it. And the thing is, I can take a picture, process it this time, and then six months from now, same picture, same amount of data, because I'm talking hours of data. It's not just one picture. It's like 500 images of the same object, each one a couple minutes long. And then I stack them together and process them, and they'll come out different. But the colors are all there. It's just the processing techniques I'm having to bring out certain colors. So I love it. Yeah, with the web technology and your pictures, I look at those of the universe and go... I don't think we could possibly be alone here. It makes you wonder, doesn't it? Yes, very humbling. I don't know the answer to that, but also I find it very hard that all of this came from nothing. Right, yeah. Exactly. Nothing doesn't create anything. Yeah. We're coming to a close here, but I always like to ask this question. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Leap Year, which is a romantic comedy. And it takes place in Ireland. And a suitor, in pursuit of this woman who had come to Ireland thinking she was going to get married during Leap Year, he asked the question... If your house were to catch on fire, besides your family and your pets, what's the one thing you would grab that means the most to you to be sure you got out of the house? I use this. My father gave me, he was a World War II veteran and was wounded. And he has the medical box that they treated him with. on board ship. And he gave me that. And inside that box, I keep things that mean a lot to me. I mean, when I attended Harvard in postdoctoral work, I kept my admissions card. I kept my football letter that I had in high school. Things that just were seminal to me and important. I keep it in that. And that's probably what I would grab. But What would you grab? What's the one thing you might grab out of your house that would symbolize who you are and help define who you've been? I really don't know if I have an answer to that, Jim. If I had my family out, my dog out, I don't think there's anything that I'm going to risk my life for to go back into the house for. If you're going to push me on and say, what is one thing? There's this one picture of my family in the backyard. Every member of my family is in that picture with the beautiful mountain behind it and everything. That's very important to me. I would probably grab that because I don't know if I can duplicate that. But other than that, there's not much of anything that I would say, nope, I got the important stuff out and let it go. I don't want to risk that. I go back to, I think of that show, This Is Us. Yeah. And the father goes back. Now, he went in to save people, his family, but then he ends up dying because of smoke exhaustion. I'm not going to die because of smoke exhaustion for any material possession. As long as I got my family out, I'm good. Yeah. Taz, you're a good man, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk about with us you know legacy project we've talked to political leaders uh the woman who cut my hair for 25 years when I lived in Washington, D.C. We interviewed her. We are talking to all kinds of individuals, all kinds of backgrounds. And it's fascinating to see what has influenced them, what has shaped them, what guides their decisions, and the kind of legacy they want to create. And we're starting to talk to young people, particularly about... That's right. You are a leader in that area. But we're talking to young people about the legacy they want to create. And it's interesting because a young person isn't really thinking about their legacy. But if you intentionally begin to think about it, it can influence decisions and choices about how you live your life. Well, thanks, Taz, for this conversation. Really appreciate it. And we'll be in touch. All right. Thank you very much, Jim. Take care. Be well. To find out more information about this conversation and other Legacy Podcast episodes, go to servantforge.org. Please subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and consider leaving us a review. The podcast was produced by Matt Erickson, music by David Hyde. Please look for a new episode on our podcast coming out soon. Remember, you have inherited a great legacy. You have an opportunity to create a great legacy. Engage your past to build your future.